new registration rebellion

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Glenn Masters
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Glenn Masters » May 1st, 2019, 5:13 pm

yes, It must be taking a lot of time and effort for our representatives dealing with this overbearing issue - and all, it seems ending in a car crash that is developing as a draconian imposition of needless registration (read; moneymaking scheme) Bob is right about the impending upping of costs as the CAA have based their costings on a perceived 17000 sign-ups ? There's absolutely no chance that this new idea will have any influence on safety and/or criminal activities arising from reckless drone operation.
Now, was it the european parliament that we keep accusing of implementing overbearing rules and regulations ?? I think we can look forward to endless new laws/moneymaking schemes once we are in control of our own decisions !!!

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 1st, 2019, 9:46 pm

not this time. Its the Committee Against Aviation. :roll: oh- and its 170,000 sign ups needed Glenn. I dont think they will get 1700....

Steve Perry
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Steve Perry » May 1st, 2019, 10:27 pm

It would not surprise me to see a new clause appear in the insurance saying that we must register for it to be valid :(

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 2nd, 2019, 7:07 am

That is the only way I will do it.

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Rob Buckley
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Rob Buckley » May 2nd, 2019, 11:22 am

Thanks folks. Yes it is soaking up a large amount of my time, but it will all be worth it in the end.

I know lots of you have already responded to the consultation and written to your MP / aviation minister / head of the CAA, and if you've not done so please at a minimum respond to the CAA consultation here.

The situation has been picked up in the industry news.

https://www.suasnews.com/2019/05/the-large-model-association-responds-to-proposed-caa-fees/

I made our case at a UAV industry forum last night, and have been in communication with the CAA.

I'm speaking to our insurers about the insurance position and will say something formal when I can. Our insurance does cover legal activities though.
LMA Secretary - I've got a reasonable idea where you live!

Dave Hayfield
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Dave Hayfield » May 2nd, 2019, 11:49 am

Well done everyone for rejecting these stupid new regulations, in particular Rob for all the work he is putting in. Hopefully the regs will go the same way as Broadcast radio licences, our old Rc transmitter licences, dog licences and any other licences that have been disbanded because of the impossibility of policing them. I have approached my local MP with the hope he will bring up the subject in the House. I have supplied detail of what we aeromodellers, not drone operators, actually do because to lump us all under the same umbrella seems to me that the DfT are ignorant of the amount of control our organisations apply to model flying.
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Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 2nd, 2019, 1:56 pm

Yes Dave. Totally agree with all of that.Thanks to all working on this, the system seems to have been put together by the office junior.

Vincent Raia
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Vincent Raia » May 3rd, 2019, 8:58 am

Without Prejudice:
Unfortunately, drones were a brilliant invention but unwittingly sounded the death knell for our hobby.
We were okay flying our Junior 60's etc. but we strayed into the realms of government & military defences with the drone. Model aircraft and helli's are usually flown within line of sight, drones have broken that rule with GPS etc. and in the wrong hands can be very dangerous, regarding use in espionage, or terror organisations, hence our innocent hobby has been blown out of the water, and we are all now labelled, however innocent, as possible criminals, terrorists, or involved in espionage, in other words, we opened up our hobby to the dodgy side of humanity and a can of worms so now are all tarred with the same dodgy brush, and as was stated on another BMFA post, like the great times we had with CB in the late 1970's/80's they now want to stamp it out, unfortunately, you cannot fight the establishment, they have closed ears when they want, just like they want to stop you driving your classic cars, environmentally unfriendly, big brother is upon, and as depressing as this is, if our hobby governing bodies cries fall on deaf ears, like private Fraser said, "We are all Doomed!" If they won't let us have Brexit, what chance does our hobby have?

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 3rd, 2019, 10:17 am

Thats a bit gloomy, Vince. I have nothing against registration, per se but the charge for this is too much in comparison with other countries, and the idea that we must pay for it (like Mexico and Trumps Wall) is out of order, especially as they have broken the CAA calculator and are counting on their fingers and toes. £16.50 is no way going to cover the super duper IT system they envisage.
We must object strongly, and as a united front, to get us back to the EASA idea - EASA Basic Regulation (EU) 2018/1139) states

(34) Model aircraft are considered to be unmanned aircraft for the purposes of this Regulation and are used primarily for leisure activities. Delegated and implementing acts concerning unmanned aircraft, adopted on the basis of this Regulation, should take into account that such model aircraft have so far had a good safety record, especially those operated by members of model aircraft associations or clubs which have developed specific codes of conduct for such activities. In addition, when adopting those delegated and implementing acts, the Commission should take account of the need for a seamless transition from the different national systems to the new Union regulatory framework so that model aircraft can continue to operate as they do today, as well as take into account existing best practices in the Member States.

paul hughes
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby paul hughes » May 3rd, 2019, 12:31 pm

It looks like your all over this Bob. I'm not sure if i have read the document correctly but is it applicable to all aircraft or just powered, indoor or outdoor. At what point does the owner of an aircraft need to register, if a retailer has a box on the shelf containing an rtf including transmitter and batterys do they need to register as owner? In the grand scheme of things the £16.50 fee is tiny compared to the money we invest in this hobby, its only the cost of a prop for a z35. Personally i think this is the end of model flying for me. I really cant be bothered to fill in the registration documents and have to change them every time i lose or gain a model. some people will be adding or deleting models every week. This also means i will not be going to anymore fly-ins or weeks away. I won't be making anymore model aircraft and therefore no more kits. I think alot of people will be selling models next year and some clubs folding if this goes ahead.

Glenn Masters
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Glenn Masters » May 3rd, 2019, 1:22 pm

Hang on a minute Paul - don't reach for the rope just yet ! I think that we need to convince the powers that be to positively seperating drone aircraft (particularly FPV types) from ordinary model flying type aircraft. From my experience, it can be noted that club members who have had a dabble with drones and the like, quickly become bored with the whole idea. That, is the essence of the difference between the two concepts. Its totally unreasonable for the CAA to ignore this argument put forward with, no doubt, some vigour by the representitives from our hobby . . . If this carries on falling on deaf ears - we'll have no option than to send Bob over to sort 'em out !!

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 3rd, 2019, 2:55 pm

Be happy to oblige, Glenn.
No Paul, it is not per model, but the owner of a model who has to register.
EASA came up with a very sensible way of doing this, whereby model flyers who were in an association, bmfa, LMA, needed to do nothing.
Enter the CAA, DFT whatever you want to call them. They say all flying things over 250 grams are drones and every owner (not pilot) must register. They seem to think that £16.50 pa will get them a super duper new computer system as they reckon on over 170,000 owners will register. That is just rubbish. The entire BMFA is only 34,000. So the money will then have to go up. It is this that we need to object to, the amount. France pays nothing, USA pays 5 dollars. You get a number which is supposed to be displayed on your model. There is no way this can ever be enforced, as I see it. It needs pointing out to them the futility of trying to get 2.8 million a year from uk model fliers. And the fact that we were informed we need do nothing.
Thats why I and the BMFA and LMA are asking for responses. Email baroness.vere@dft.gov.uk with your concerns, the more the better. No ropes please, we need a nice drinky at Binham.

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Rob Buckley
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Rob Buckley » May 3rd, 2019, 3:00 pm

None of the registration requirements apply to specific airframes, or the ownership of specific airframes. The registration is required only for the operator, be that a person or a company.

The required registration information is name, address & DoB, and that's about it.

Al of these requirements apply to small unmanned aircraft flown outdoors, drones and model aircraft are exactly the same in law.

“Small unmanned aircraft” means any unmanned aircraft, other than a balloon or a kite, having a mass of not more than 20kg without its fuel but including any articles or equipment installed in or attached to the aircraft at the commencement of its flight;

For models over 20kg, the exemption will require the operator to be registered & the named pilots to have shown their competency as remote pilots, so the requirements will be effectively exactly the same for any models over 250g that we fly.
LMA Secretary - I've got a reasonable idea where you live!

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 3rd, 2019, 3:04 pm

This is the crazy bit-
We are proposing an annual charge of £16.50 for each operator.

This is to cover the cost of running the registration scheme, which includes:

IT hosting and security costs;
CAA personnel and helpdesk;
identity verification;
a national education and awareness campaign; and
costs of further upgrades to the initial drone registration service.
We have based our costs on an assumption of 170,000 registrations over the initial 18 month period.

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 3rd, 2019, 3:27 pm

Waiting for the model registrations to come flooding in


waiting-for-email-like.jpg
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Steve Perry
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Steve Perry » May 3rd, 2019, 10:59 pm

Maybe I am missing something, what is the actual use for registration other than for the government to show to show that they are "doing something" about quadcopter drones ? Can we expect knocks on the door by the police to ask if you were flying it at Gatwick :(

What I do recall is at the demolition of a landmark chimney within a few hundred yards of a drone / helicopter site, with the police asking if anyone on the site had been flying the drone above the chimney. The drone that they saw was actually a commercially operated one with full permissions being flown from the crew area the other side rather than the public one on their side :(

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » May 4th, 2019, 7:32 am

You are not missing anything. This is a totally pointless exercise aimed at assuring the public that 'something is being done'.
On a brighter note, the emails to the Baroness have had an effect, she has now asked for a meeting with the BMFA. Lets hope that sanity can rear its head.

Alan Cantwell 1131
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Alan Cantwell 1131 » May 4th, 2019, 8:17 am

But are other associations involved? I would hate to think the bmfa are speaking on behalf of the LMA,

Vincent Raia
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby Vincent Raia » May 4th, 2019, 9:54 am

Dear all,
these days I occasionally go out and fly a modern foamy but haven't flown for three years due to life and weather etc. getting in the way but I am totally aggrieved by this latest proposed legislation, after all, we are all supposed to be big kids going out to play with our toy aeroplanes, and now all of a sudden we're are deemed a public menace and a danger to society!
And yes Bob, it's only £16.50, so was the TV license many years ago, it won't stay that way for long, once you go down the road of paying a fee to the government, as sure as eggs are eggs, it will escalate, and as I have stated on the BMFA FB site, at 73 years of age, do I want to go spending my time writing letters to whoever it may concern, to defend myself and my rights to go out occasionally to fly a bit of foam? Do I heck, like Paul said, it's all too much in the too hard basket.

I pay my fee the the BMFA as one of the governing bodies of our hobby, so I expect them to be getting off their arses and fighting for the hobby, not me, because that is what I was under the impassion I paid them to do, and if it all becomes too much hassle, like getting a gun license and buying a gun, then for me, it will be time to walk away and buy a train set!

David Baker
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Re: new registration rebellion

Postby David Baker » May 4th, 2019, 12:46 pm

Looking at the maths....

They have costed this pointless exercise at the incomprehensible amount of £2.8 million
Their maths says £2.8million divided by estimated 170000 registrations = £16.50 per registration
If only the members of the Bmfa and LMA register....
It will be 36000 registration x £16.50 = £594000 a shortfall of over £2.2 million
Sooooo
The year after it will be £2.8million divided by 36000 registrations which equals.....
£77.70 per registration.. :o :o :o


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