Recognition?

[Dave Hayfield]

Where I live there is a new art gallery which is publicised mainly by a female artist who draws spidery outlines of 'rude things' and receives amazing accolades from the arty groups and the chattering class. The gallery is frequented by our top royalty and VIP's and this lady 'artist' is now a millionaire.
On the other hand, in our latest Journal there is an article featuring the incredible craftsmanship of David Glen. His work is in a skill class out on its own which goes mostly unnoticed by the general public but really deserves a lot more attention and praise than the likes of our aforementioned lady artist. I know his masterpieces are on show but I do not see newspaper articles devoted to this man's work or high profile TV news about royal visits to see his real artistic and engineering talents.
Maybe this is why this country, which was the 'Workshop of the World' is now so sadly lacking the engineering skills provided by apprenticeships etc. I suppose it is much easier to scribble on a bit of paper and become a millionaire.

[Steve Mansell]

Dave,
I know how you feel, but recognition and appreciation of skill and knowledge from those that understand is worth far more than that which comes from those who feel they aught to "follow the in crowd"!
The country still has, and continues to produce, outstanding engineers and inventors, as well as the more "arty farty" types.
I personally build and fly for my own enjoyment, but I also get a great lift from others when they say "thats teriffic, made a good job there".
Cheer up mate, and be happy in the knowledge you know what is an example of exeptional skill, even if others don't.
Cheers
Steve

[Bob Thompson1894]

I cant believe intelligent people get taken in by unmade beds and piles of bricks. There is real talent out there, including artists. I am utterly amazed at some of the craftsmanship shown on here also, it is in the same echelon as master sculptors and artists.

[Alan Cantwell 1131]

To get outstanding inventors and engineering apprentices, it has to start in school, with finding those with skill in their hands, through metalwork shops and woodwork shops, sadly, it does not happen, those shops are long gone, but, kids are guided to computers at an early age, they do not develope skills to go into the world of invention, and actually produce things, EVERYTHING origininates in an engineering shop, sadly, getting apprentices to do this means a lot more work for guys like me, i have to try to put into them the ways and means to think for themselves, then communicate it to their hands, This used to be the schools job, But, the consensus is to pack them off to university, this, does NOT give them the savvy to work metal, we struggle to get kids into our game, high Prescion engineering, they simply are not interested,
We do work experiance, our shop is ultra modern, and quite clean, we had a group come round with a teacher, 2 of the kids were acting up, and the teacher had the misfortune to have me walking past when he uttered, You two! Quiet, its the likes of you who will end up in a place like this he got the rough end of my tongue
I rest my case, The futures with computer programmers, and artists, as a manufacturing concern, wec are now in the minor league

[Bob Thompson1894]

I think I would have taken him by the throat......

[Rob Buckley]

Alan,

What are the rates of pay like for machining these days? Do they reflect not being able to get any decent staff?

Computers are the way of the world...for everything you make, somebody needs to draw it in CATIA or somesuch which is not as easy as it looks, especially defining tolerances.

We get quite a few apprentices at work (Airbus), and they're generally very good. I only really see the 'higher apprentices', but they get paid a reasonable wage (more than basic apprentice pay), get placements all round the company and get their degree paid for. Something I'll be steering my lads towards if they show any interest in engineering at all, as it's better to be paid to get an engineering degree than the other way round!

Don't forget, actual computer programming (rather than looking on FaceTube) is properly hard work!

[James Ladell]

It's not just engineering that has this problem, my company is a restoration company of old and historic buildings. Trying to get a apprentice that wants to do 4 year course is like trying to find rocking horse poo. They want big money straight away if you do get one and then find that they are not really interested in the job when they do get into it. It's often a father of uncle that tells them to get a trade, it is not easy and is hardwork. But hardwork is something that most young people have never heard of. When I was at school I was good at woodwork and metalwork. Liked technical drawing. I was picked out to try a local building company as a carpenter and joiner. They put me through a 5 year apprentiship. Now if you ask a school if they have any pupils with a talent for woodwork etc to take on straight from school, they say that no one has expressed a interest in that type of work. My jobs that I do have vast range of jobs from oak timber frame repairs to a current one of damming a river and repairing a water wheel built in 1862. Every day is different
its is a job for life. I was taught lots of traditional methods of repairing and building with lime and hair, timber and steel. I hate to say this but the average age of the people that work for me is over 50. I have one lad that is 25 and he is very good. I tell him I wish their was more like him.
I want to make lads like him into craftsmen not your your average tradesman. If things do not change in another 10-15 years their will be a real shortage of skilled craftsmen to look after the historc buildings of Britain. Things have to change in the schools and in the way the attitude of teachers and pupils look at engineering and the trades. Not everyone is cut out for a degree and university.

[Bob Thompson1894]

And thats where they get it wrong. If you are not 'cut out for that' as you say, then you are immediately some sort of drop out. instead of embracing the fact that some people are 'good with their hands' the schools try to drag them into media studies or some such thing. I have been saying since the early seventies that the lack of apprenticeships will come back to bite us. Now its at a crisis point in the building industry and we have to import tradesmen from the EU. As well, of course, as nurses. In my fifty odd years as a joiner I watched this happen, as computers became the fashionable thing to get in to. I cant argue with that, as its what I would have done if they were available in those days, but it certainly has caused a major loss to the trades.

[Alan Cantwell 1131]

Engineering,wage wise, has not changed much, its the normal working week that pays the bills, its the 2 nights and a saturday morning that pays for the good things in life, ive always said, we are the backbone of tge world, everything else is made from stuff made in an engineering factory, sure, it has to be designed, thats were qualifications come in, using them to step up the ladder, But, the interest has to b vthere, sadly, its hard to get a kid that wants to get dirty, and work in a factory, lack of guidance in schools is the thing to blame for me

[Dave Parry]

Well what can I say! The blame always comes down to the teachers, it does make me laugh at times, I have to admit but it does also annoy me too. You see I work in a school and I do teach children computer skills. So no surprise that I side with Rob on this one. If you are going to lay blame on anyone for the skilled trade being lost then look no further then the Government in power or any other Government in the past. They are the ones who set the teaching curriculum for our children today not the teachers. I would really love any of you to spend I week or two in a school environment and see just what today's kids (as you call them) are taught. you would be surprised I can assure you, trust me it is not all computers.

If the Government don't think skilled work is important then it doesn't get taught in any form, don't forget you have to catch them young to have any chance of them wanting to do it for a career. So it would have to start at primary level. I also agree with James, that in another 10 to 15 years there will be problems. But please blame the Government for this not the teachers, who are only doing what the Government have put in place.

[Dave Hayfield]

Totally agree with you on the governments interference Dave, I bet that most of us of my age and, no doubt, a bit younger were introduced to metal workshops, technical drawing and woodwork shops at school which would grab the interest of youngsters who found they could master engineering skills. This in turn would allow them to look for jobs in engineering with a bit of knowledge behind them as to what it is all about. I hate to say it but my grandson who is 12 years old spends an inordinate amount of time on his computer and I have to 'keep my cool' when he says to me "look Grandad I have built a house on my screen" when in fact he has just put a pre written program into action which does it all for him. There is nothing to compare with hands on experience which is only available in the real world.

[Dave Parry]

I understand where you are coming from, with the young ones. We are now teaching them computer programming which is all about the code behind the programs so at least they will have an understanding of what make them work. Not quite the same as engineering skills but at least they will have the knowledge and the basics if they find they want to take it further rather than just using it to make pictures or go on face book etc...

Whether we like it or not the world is run by computers even third world countries are using them, I know this because we send all our old school equipment to these places to help the children there. I agree we should still be teaching skilled work but that is out of our hands am afraid. Who knows what we will be teaching them next. It will all depend on who wins the general election. So if you want to change what we teach our children of today them lobby the Government. Good luck with that one.