An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

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Bob Thompson1894
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » August 27th, 2019, 4:03 pm

Rob Buckley wrote:The location of model flying will be in the interoperable traffic management system(s) when the models are flying, so that other users of the same airspace will be aware and can route themselves appropriately.

As long as everyone reads and obeys the NOTAMS. That certainly does not happen now. We share with a parachute school, and there is a NOTAM over the entire airfield, this does not stop wayward light aircraft, microlights etc flying straight across, to the chagrin of the school owner. The thought of autonomous drones, be they Amazon or some other, belting across the airfield with parachutes descending is quite a thought. Read the accident investigations for drones I posted above to see that the technology is far from perfect.
However, all I am concerned with at the moment is whether the insurance companies will still cover us if we dont pay up, because if they say we have to be licensed, then it will be incumbent on clubs to enforce this or be liable, as a committee. Which makes us the police force.

chris-berry
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby chris-berry » August 27th, 2019, 8:10 pm

Bob, i'm the membership secretary at my club of just over 90 members. I have no intention of policing anything. I will take a note of members registration number, just as I do with their BMFA number and will either get them to sign a renewal form to say they have passed the test and/or will want to see proof they have passed the test and that is it, no more no less.

All insurance policies, be it house, car, life or model aircraft flying are only valid if the law is not being broken. So, in the case of model flying, if it is the law, as I think it will be, that anyone flying a model aircraft has to have passed a test and registered (or the owner if under 18) and a number must be displayed, then if people don't, then their insurance policy is invalid, as they are not complying with the law.

Alan Cantwell 1131
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Alan Cantwell 1131 » August 28th, 2019, 5:58 am

Isn’t the coarse of action you describe policing it for them? Far better to just let the individual please himself, and distance yourself from this absurd test, the more say stuff it the quicker it wi be got rid of, whats wanted is a national boycott

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » August 28th, 2019, 6:54 am

Of course it is Alan. We police the insurance of our members, and now we will be obliged to ensure all members have passed the test in order to make them legal. So we are, in essence, policing it. If I see a member about to fly and I know he has not passed the stupid test, then I am obliged to tell him he cant fly. Now, getting all of our members to register with the BMFA portal has been a nightmare- as I said, herding cats- and A certificates, (that is an ongoing thing, four years so far and still not all done) so this rubbish is going to be a pain in the rear. The crazy thing is, insurance is not a legal requirement, but this is! The ball is in the court of the insurance companies, I would never fly without insurance, and would not allow anyone on our site fly without it. So if it is required by them, then we have lost, and all the negotiations by the BMFA/LMA, and all 11,000 emails from members were simply a waste of time.

chris-berry
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby chris-berry » August 29th, 2019, 7:47 am

Its not policing. I won't be doing anything with the numbers. They can self certify on a form and that's that. If and its highly likely when the insurance companies say no registration no insurance, then if not registered and tested then no fly. I don't see that as policing.
If they choose to fly elsewhere, that's up to them. Its no different to a non-member turning up to a club and wanting to fly and being told they can't because they aren't a member, is that policing?

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » August 29th, 2019, 8:21 am

yes. It is.
Heres a situation- a member tells you they are certified and paid up. He crashes a model in to the back of someones head..(it has happened) and kills them. At the inquest the judge asks if he is certified. It turns out he is not. The judge then asks who checked his status? Committee is then deemed liable and insurance refuses to pay up.
Can you assure me that this could never happen? Because if it were even a tiny chance, then we would have to check certification as we do insurances. Ergo, policing.

chris-berry
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby chris-berry » August 29th, 2019, 8:59 am

So to avoid that we check and that is the only way we can do it. There is no other way other than jacking the whole show in. And what do we know that someone is flying without registration? Inform the local plod?

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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » August 29th, 2019, 9:12 am

Yes. I would be on the blower instantly. As I pointed out earlier, WE are the police. They have us by the short and curlies, unless the insurance companies are not bothered by the legislation, which is highly doubtful. So even if we are safe, legal and insured model fliers with As, Bs and Proficiencies, we are not considered safe unless we do the stupid tick box test (or you get someone to do it for you) and pay your £16.50. And yes, a lot of people WILL jack it in. You could not make this **** up.

chris-berry
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby chris-berry » August 29th, 2019, 3:17 pm

I think the whole thing is s**t but what do we do? For those who are occasional foamy flyers then I expect many will give up but for those of us with 30 years of building and flying, 40 models, a van, workshop and god knows how many thousands invested, it ain't gonna happen until I meet my maker!

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » August 30th, 2019, 7:00 am

Me too Chris. But I can see wholesale resignations. And more work for hard pressed club officials.

Scott Edwards
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Scott Edwards » August 31st, 2019, 5:20 pm

Something has occurred to me ...

I have to register myself and my car, and pay my road tax. I also have to insure my car.

Not having road tax does NOT invalidate my insurance, I've looked into this and it's quite correct, they are separate things.

Is this not a precedent that the LMA/BMFA insurers could follow if they wished ?

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » September 1st, 2019, 7:29 am

Scott- this will be in the hands of our insurers. If they say we must be registered to comply with the law or we are not insured, then we are scuppered.

Dave Hayfield
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Dave Hayfield » September 1st, 2019, 10:17 am

The bottom line to this nonsense shows up with the number of serious modellers,11000, who have responded to the cause. The DfT and CAA need £2mill+ to fund their registration department, this is why they came up with the purely arbitrary number of 170000 modellers who would pay the fee and this will never happen. If the taxpayer is lumbered with this bill I'm sure that if the scheme is explained to the overtaxed general public there will be a flurry of facebook and maybe 38 degrees complaints. I wait in anticipation!
Thanet Model Flying Club
LMA 520

paul morris
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby paul morris » September 1st, 2019, 10:21 am

surely the simplest way around this test is for all the associations to send out the answers to the questions to all their members that have passed the respective associations test's be it "A", "B","LMA Proficiency" etc

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » September 1st, 2019, 5:22 pm

I'm sure all the answers will be posted on the various Facebook pages for all to see, not that they should tax any of us. In any case, how do they know who is doing the test? One person could do it for the entire club. And what about those with no internet access? Still plenty of those. Its about as stupid as the BBC tv on my computer asking me if I have a licence. (and yes, I do)

chris-berry
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby chris-berry » September 1st, 2019, 10:26 pm

All forms are available in hard copy, such that everything can be done by post. There will be the obvious time delays in registering and receiving confirmation, but it may be one way to ensure that all 40'000 of us get value for our £16.50 and know that the government are doing a hard days graft, writing letters and processing paper forms!!

Alan King
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Alan King » September 2nd, 2019, 6:37 am

:D
Last edited by Alan King on September 2nd, 2019, 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Alan King » September 2nd, 2019, 6:40 am

Allow me please to play devils advocate, an incident occurs with a drone flight to interrupt traffic into in this case Coningsby, severely restricting the ability of the QRF ( quick reaction force ) and any other aircraft to fly out of or into the base.

The current situation is such that any attempt to try discover who it may have been will elicit the following from those who live near clubs or areas where people fly and who do not like or appreciate the hobby ( I can think of at least two people in close proximity to a nearby club)

"Well officer Joe Blogs from down the fen has one of those infernal machines and I have seen him flying irresponsibly in the past, he shouts at me when I try to talk to him, becomes abusive and belligerent if I walk onto the field where he flies and is generally a nasty piece of work, I saw him flying just yesterday and I am sure his model was over Coningsby way." Says Mr Ranter

Poor old Joe gets a visit from Mr Plod who seizes his seven model aircraft, damaging at least three beyond repair, stuffs Mr Blogs cuffed into the back of the car, Mr Blogs has now become highly abusive and is using threats and extreme language with the officers.
Joe waves his membership card about prior to been cuffed but as Mr Plod has no idea what it's relevance is he fails to attempt to contact the BMFA or as Mr Plod in this case is a bit slow phones the BBMF at Coningsby who reliably inform him that they do not give out membership cards nor know who Mr Blogs is.

Now let's move on after registration is required, the same situation arises, Mr Plod now contacts the CAA, Mr Blogs is registered, all his models have appropriate information on them, immediately Mr Blogs moves to the bottom of the suspect list.

Mr Plod can now move his enquiry on and look into the very complainant who Mr Doe from next door informs the police has some sort of device which seems to be like a UFO, has six or eight fans attached and has flashing lights, oh and wasn't he just the other day complaining about the terrible noise the jets made but he had a way to kill two birds with one stone.

Mr Plod calls the CAA and they confirm they have never heard of nor has Mr ranter ever registered with them, a few hours later Mr Ranter and his multirotor craft are loaded into Mr Plods car for a bit of in depth questioning down at the station.

Yes it's a pain to register, yes its too much and a knee jerk reaction, but if it stops one such incident, one terrorist or stops one potential crash then it is worth it, we have to accept the possibilities of our planes being used as weapons.

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » September 2nd, 2019, 7:11 am

Sorry, but that is just rubbish. Just where does the register, the test and £16.50 come in to this? But yes, the situation at Gatwick (drone? what drone?) proves that innocent people will be targeted. Even though the database is supposedly not to be used for targeting suspects.

Alan King
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Re: An Update on the UK Regulations for Model Flyers

Postby Alan King » September 2nd, 2019, 8:33 am

Rubbish you may view it as but sadly I lived through terrorism in two countries, some called them freedom fighters. It was not unknown for babies to be killed and their bodies stuffed with explosive and denoted by the mother whose back the child was strapped to.

Or for schools and churches to be attacked, we are living in dangerous times where anything, even a van can be weaponised, no it is time to aknowleadge that somehow we need more control over a system that allows anyone to buy and fly aircraft .

regulation of sales would help.


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