1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

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MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 7th, 2014, 11:51 am

Thank you for your replies chaps. The large hole in the middle is there because this is a Beverley LOL! The main structural part of this model is at the top end except for where the undercarriage attaches. This is connected to the same frames as the wings, ie frame No's C2 C3 and C4 which are similar to C1 (pictured above) but will be from 1/4" ply. This will become clearer to you as the model develops. I intend to make the main spar connections via a box section set up, fiddly I know, but it suits the design perfectly???

I asked the question regarding more weight saving holes because the C1 frame weighs in at 10 oz. I am going to modify the C1 stub spar slightly by cutting away some wood at the top and bottom, about 1/4" to the point where the middle of the three aerofoil frames is fitted. I will post a picture of this mod as soon as it is done.

I have two more frames on the work bench, No's C5 and C6, 3/4 and 1" taller than C1 due to the rake of the fuselage. These will be followed by D1 and D2. C is the centre (main structural) portion of the fuselage (wings and undercarriage) and D is the portion aft of C where the rear half of the fuselage will connect. I will make C2, C3 and C4 as soon as I have a supply of 1/4" ply.

The front section is numbered A1 to A5 and contains the varied frame shapes that diminish to the point where balsa blocks will be needed to finish the shaping, and section B where the frames are all similar in shape, essentially the same as C1 but shorter to accommodate the removable cockpit section which gives access to the radio and batteries etc.

Just in case the above description is as clear as mud, I have attached piccies of the drawings. These drawings are not complete and indeed require some changes to match what I am actually doing. I have many sheets of drawings showing much more detail.

John Rickett has looked at my drawings, and made some suggestions to improve the structure of this design, nothing too radical, I might add, but I will be considering how to deal with any changes, specifically regarding the main spar arrangement or material thickness's. I may need to get someone to make some undercarriage bits for me, any suggestions as to whom I should ask?
Attachments
PB070001.JPG
Front half
PB070001.JPG (159.47 KiB) Viewed 10566 times
PB070002.JPG
Rear half
PB070002.JPG (163.42 KiB) Viewed 10566 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 7th, 2014, 12:08 pm

For comparison purposes only!
Attachments
beverley001.jpg
beverley001.jpg (16.09 KiB) Viewed 10563 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 7th, 2014, 5:36 pm

As promised, the modification of C1 mentioned above. The more astute among you will see this straight away? It will make the construction easier?????

A picture of the early stages of C5 and C6, just in case you are cheesed off with C1?
Attachments
PB070004.JPG
C1 frame modified.
PB070004.JPG (172.95 KiB) Viewed 10530 times
PB070003.JPG
C5 and C6 blanks.
PB070003.JPG (174.38 KiB) Viewed 10530 times

Ron Pearman
Posts: 48
Joined: December 5th, 2008, 9:09 am
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Ron Pearman » November 8th, 2014, 8:49 am

Bringing tears to my eyes. I used to fly on 53 squad Beverleys at Abingdon. They gave me noise induced hearing loss. Thank you Bristol Centaurus!!

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 8th, 2014, 1:49 pm

Hi Ron,

My experience of these giants was in the Middle East. I flew as Pax on many a flight from Khormaksar to Masirah as well as stopping off at Ryan, Salalah, Sharjah, Riyadh and Muharraq. This was 84 Squadron of course, I do not recall any particular A/C identities, but have a vivid memory of some of the antics the pilots got up to in these most unlikely aircraft. Not far short of 80,000 lb UW, but they simply hung in the sky!

I have not yet decided on a particular identity for this model, but it is likely to be 84 Squadron!

Ron Pearman
Posts: 48
Joined: December 5th, 2008, 9:09 am
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Ron Pearman » November 8th, 2014, 2:53 pm

I spent Xmas 1958 in Aden and flew the RSM as we called it, plus all over the gulf. Recently been to Dubai and Muscat on holiday, my things have changed!

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 10th, 2014, 5:54 pm

This photo shows the three C section frames having done quite a bit more work on them, but it does not really show. I have centred and lined them up trimming them, externally, to the same shape. I have yet to trim the big hole in the middle, but this is less important to get exact. The bottom will need to be well lined up as this will have the floor fitted for the batteries to locate.
Attachments
PB100001.JPG
Next stage.
PB100001.JPG (172.99 KiB) Viewed 10320 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 11th, 2014, 4:32 pm

And now, as they say, for something different? In the picture, frame No.s B4, D1 and D2 blanks, ready for fettling and joint slots to be cut. B4 is positioned in front of C1 and D1 and 2 are behind C6. All these frames, plus C2,3 and 4 and B1, 2 and 3 when made, will be clamped together to fettle all the common shapes to a uniform profile. There is some flexibility with this to account for the balsa skin.
Attachments
PB110001.JPG
B4, D1 and D2.
PB110001.JPG (152.03 KiB) Viewed 10231 times

stuart knowles 1611
Posts: 241
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby stuart knowles 1611 » November 11th, 2014, 6:47 pm

Coming on very well Malcolm

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 12th, 2014, 4:53 pm

Getting the "desponds" today. It is amazing how many things can go wrong, put one thing right and it shows up another error. Will have a bit of "putting things right" later on? A measurement is a measurement innit? So when two bits have the same measurement, why don't they line up in the places that they are supposed to line up? Grrrr!

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 13th, 2014, 9:05 am

Reflecting on my previous post, it has occurred to me that I have made a few small, but noticeable, cock ups? My saving grace is that I read somewhere that "gap filling glue" is available. Must have been invented with me in mind? LOL.

stuart knowles 1611
Posts: 241
Joined: December 27th, 2008, 11:46 am
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby stuart knowles 1611 » November 13th, 2014, 1:54 pm

A finished and flying 'stand off scale' is always better than an unfinished masterpiece. The next one will be better and you can always bring this one back in for an upgrade once its been flown.

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 13th, 2014, 3:33 pm

What I have done is to cut a couple of the joints a bit off line. I will need to line them up the best way and if necessary, use some slivers to make up any resulting gaps, rather than relying on gap filling glue. I doubt if anyone will notice once it's done! Most of the slots are a little undersized anyway to allow for fettling, so will lose some of the discrepancy there. We are not talking bus garages here! It gets you down when you've been working diligently and still make an error or two, but I am not a machine. Of course it is possible that I have exaggerated the errors a bit, I have yet to do a proper check and am making some temporary spars to do this with. The spars for the actual construction will be much longer and fully jointed.

However, I have ordered some thick cyano gap filling cyanoacrylate superglue anyway, as there will doubtless be some small gaps to fill that will be too small for a sliver. I have also ordered some super aliphatic penetrating resin adhesive and a pack of applicators.

Don't laugh, but I still have over half a (3.1/2lb) tin of Cascamite. I will use this for any large gluing areas such as that in C1 (above).

John Rickett
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby John Rickett » November 13th, 2014, 9:54 pm

Malcolm,

Gaps are generally bad news especially in stressed areas and cyano is not a good adhesive for joining large surface areas. It will readily wick along the grain but not so readily across it and you usually have little idea how far the glue has travelled into the joint.

For glueing ply to ply or balsa to ply its probably best to use yellow (aliphatic) glue for joints which will be rubbed down afterwards as its sands well. For internal joints (those which do not require sanding) then the cheaper (white) wood glue will provide a joint at least as strong as the wood. If you need to do some gap filling then use 2 part epoxy resin as a substitute to wood glue.

For high stress areas (engine bulkheads and the like) or for joining dissimilar materials (ply/aluminium) then always use a slow-setting 2 part epoxy resin or for super strength, Hysol 9462. Drill holes and roughen aluminium when possible for max adhesion.

Cyano is great for edge to edge joints such as joining two sheets of balsa when preparing wing sheeting etc, though you must ensure there are NO gaps beforehand. Cyano is also ok for low stress areas where you may have used liteply or balsa and where you can be certain that the glue has wicked all the way through the joint. If in doubt avoid cyano!

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Denis Brown
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Denis Brown » November 13th, 2014, 11:51 pm

Brilliant thread keep it going as it is. Been several mentions of the Blackburn Factory on local TV because of the WW1 anniversary and some interesting video from the Blackburn Factory at Brough

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 14th, 2014, 9:17 am

Hi Denis, thanks for your support. This thread is for me to keep a record of this project, to learn stuff, and maybe others can learn from my mistakes? I do understand a little about geometry and the physics of aircraft, but not enough, so I need to pick brains from time to time. I am not up to speed with the new generations of adhesives; this has all changed since my previous forays into model aircraft.

On that point about adhesives, thank you John for your suggestions above. I will be sure to buy all the required types of sticky stuff that will doubtless be needed.

With regard to “the gaps”, we must get this into perspective! The errors I refer to above are all cross halving joints; therefore each joint will have four edges that will stick together. Should there be an error in cutting one of these joints, then the maximum error can only be one of the four edges with a small gap. I will deal with this (if this occurs) by gluing in a sliver of wood into the gap. My contention is that this will actually be a stronger joint for this remedy. All main fuselage frames on this model will have seven of these cross halving joints, the “C” section frames will have eight, plus two extra ¼ inch stress bars which in fact runs from B4 through the six “C” frames and the two “D” frames, nine frames all of which are ply, the rest of the frames will be balsa. The stress bars will be braced with ply gussets longitudinally. The main stress area will be between C2, C3 and C4 (as mentioned earlier ^) with the ¼ inch stress bars, should provide all the strength required between the wings and the fixed landing gear. These areas are where there can be no errors and gaps etc. The wing attachment box will be constructed from 1/8 ply at the sides, ¼ ply top and bottom, and will be finger jointed. This must be absolutely accurate, and if I make any errors, I will need to remake the parts and not try to remedy them. This box is fitted between frames C2 and C3 and is at the balance point of the aircraft. There may seem to be insufficient longerons, but I am going to skin this with balsa, probably 3/32”, creating a monocoque structure, coated in resin and woven glass, it should be as strong as steel?

There are possible issues with the engine nacelles at the moment, I need to have another look at this arrangement and maybe design some improvements to the stressed areas. Other than this, I have no real worries. I am going to visit Richard Hughes in the next couple of weeks to discuss my wing design and look for any improvements that may be necessary, but I am reasonably happy with the design so far.

In the meantime, there is the AGM. Perhaps we can say hello?

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 15th, 2014, 12:17 pm

To set the record straight on errors. As you can see from this picture of the three "C" section frames cut so far, lined up together. The picture shows C1 on top, then C5 and C6 at the bottom. You can see that there is a 1.5 mm drill sticking out from the centre of the frames to the right of the picture. This is the centre datum and is vital to the correct alignment. The joints that you see are as yet under size and un-fettled but appear to be lined up OK. The joints on the far side are also lined up well. To remind you, the "C" section of this model is where all the action is going on, and the three frames from this section that do most of the work, taking most of the stresses, C2, C3 and C4 are not yet made, but will be centred on the centre datum and then lined up and the joints marked from these existing frames rather than by measurement. All six frames can then be clamped up and all the joints fettled together. So the main part of the fuselage that takes all the strains of the wings and the undercarriage, the "C" section will be on spec. The rest of the fuselage will then be lined up from this little lot.

The errors in cutting the joints that I mention above are all on the B4 frame seen at the left of the picture. I have not yet established the centre datum on B4, so this is probably the cause of the cutting errors. Perhaps I was in too much of a hurry to finish this frame, but it does not take any of the stress that the "C" section takes, so is less relevant. However, if I decide to still use this frame, rather than having to remake it, it will be because it will not compromise the integrity of the finished fuselage. The two "D" section frames have not had any joints cut yet, so they will be OK but will have to be squared up without the aid of the centre datum, just line up the edges, top and bottom (floor level). The top of the "D" frames is on the horizontal datum, so should be a cinch? It is this horizontal datum that all remaining frames will be squared from, it also forms the break between the fuselage and the removable cockpit section.

In my own defence, there is a small problem of being able to get these frames into the band saw. Most cuts are Ok but there are two joints on each frame that need to be cut from the other side, so the joints need to be marked round the edge etc and then cut on the band saw. I am convinced that this is where I went wrong? Anyone else experienced this problem?
Attachments
PB150001.JPG
PB150001.JPG (146.75 KiB) Viewed 9803 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 15th, 2014, 3:54 pm

Further to my post from earlier today, I did some lining up, by eye, of Frame B4 onto Frame C1 by squaring the edges and clamping them together. It was fiddly but I got it right and then drilled the centre datum hole and it was bang on the centre line (see photo). Having then inserted a drill through the holes on the work bench and lined up the sides it showed that all but one of the joint slots was off line, they were all over the place.

The point here is that the datum must be set first, a valuable lesson for me as this frame, B4, is now scrapped and will be re-made.
Attachments
PB150001_1.JPG
Frame B4 looks OK.
PB150001_1.JPG (168.25 KiB) Viewed 9757 times
PB150003.JPG
Centre datum on the centre line.
PB150003.JPG (145.78 KiB) Viewed 9757 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 15th, 2014, 4:57 pm

Despite scrapping B4, I couldn't resist having a play. These four frames located in their approximate positions using some scraps of 1/4 ply. It is clear to see where the C2, C3 and C4 frames will locate. It's going to be quite a big lump?
Attachments
PB150001_2.JPG
Practice run?
PB150001_2.JPG (171.35 KiB) Viewed 9742 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » November 16th, 2014, 5:34 pm

Had a good day today. Re-made the B4 frame, and fettled all the joints together.

Looks like I may have to settle for 6mm ply rather than 1/4 inch for the remaining "C" section frames? I won't lose any sleep over that!
Attachments
PB160003.JPG
B4 new and old.
PB160003.JPG (151.22 KiB) Viewed 9662 times
PB160004.JPG
Fettling the frame joints together.
PB160004.JPG (158.14 KiB) Viewed 9662 times


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