Shows, Displays and Slots

[stewart clifford]

With all the excitement of the recent Cosford show and the debate about how it could be better I'm thinking that a positive thread(as suggested by Rob b) might be a more constructive way of keeping our shows fresh, entertaining an top of the game.

One idea I've had today is aimed at display pilots, why not plan out and practice your display? In all of the model flying competitions the pilots have a per written schedule which they've flown time and time again in order try and win. Surely we could do that too?
Also it seems to me that the show pilot community is fairly small and you tend to see the same faces at most of the shows, so why not plan displays with someone you know from other clubs? We all know who's got what model and roughly how they fly it. So for example the guys with the bombers could get in touch with some of the "fighter boys" and work something out.

Even the trainer slot could be co-ordinated and could be far more entertaining.

If anyone uses this thread can we keep it positive please? If not could Mr Parry delete negativity?

[Denis Brown]

With all the excitement of the recent Cosford show and the debate about how it could be better I'm thinking that a positive thread(as suggested by Rob b) might be a more constructive way of keeping our shows fresh, entertaining an top of the game.

One idea I've had today is aimed at display pilots, why not plan out and practice your display? In all of the model flying competitions the pilots have a per written schedule which they've flown time and time again in order try and win. Surely we could do that too?
Also it seems to me that the show pilot community is fairly small and you tend to see the same faces at most of the shows, so why not plan displays with someone you know from other clubs? We all know who's got what model and roughly how they fly it. So for example the guys with the bombers could get in touch with some of the "fighter boys" and work something out.

Even the trainer slot could be co-ordinated and could be far more entertaining.

If anyone uses this thread can we keep it positive please? If not could Mr Parry delete negativity?

Well done, good suggestion

[Dave Parry]

Yes Stewart, Mr P can and will delete anything that reverts back to attacking the shows and the people who run and organise them. As you say in your opening statement "positive thread". So any suggestions that will help provide a better display for the paying public will be welcome because that is who we are doing it for, I will look forward to reading your thoughts and ideas. Good idea Rob and well done Stewart for starting the thread.

[John Greenfield]

I have been thinking about the issues of keeping the show to time and feel a possible issue is the lengths of the slots now. In years gone by slots were 10 or even 12 mins but now they seem to be 5 or 8. Whilst I fully understand that the shorter slots are an attempt to get more slots and hence pilots in, it does leave almost no flexibility to make up time if for any reason something untoward happens. With 10+ min slots it would be possible to take back a minute or 2 from each slot to get back on track but with such short slots now it is almost impossible as it would leave almost no time to put on any kind of display, especially for the very large models who may take a minute or so just to fly a circuit.
It could be argued that longer slots could be boring but it Stuart’s idea above is incorporated and slots themed with possibly staggered take off and landings where practical I feel it could work.
We must not forget the effort all the flight line team put into getting the show running but as Stuart says there is always room for constructive comment and I offer the above note in that spirit.

John

[Paul Hill]

I thought the German team at Cosford did a very professional display (excluding the music) by gathering their pilots together on the ground with the engines running then taking off as a squadron completing their display landing together taxing the planes into a line to take a 'bow' before killing the engines, very nice approach.
Agree with John increasing the slot times will help especially when there is a lot for the commentator to relay to the public, which brings me to another point I'd like to raise. As a spectator and club flier it is always nice to know the details of the aircraft such as built from plan, scratch built, ARTF, engine size & make, weight ect would be very useful. Please don't get me wrong I'm not asking for another 'trade fair show' type commentary or that style of display.

Having praised the German team I must add the Reds Duo where out of this world having down loaded my photos it’s difficult to spot the difference from the real thing, well done guys truly amazing.

Paul

[Dave Hayfield]

Speaking as someone who has been involved in organising and running shows for over 20 years, including the early Cosford shows, there is just one indisputable fact to remember----there are only so many minutes in a day and if too many pilots are booked in then the problems occur. If your booking in is accepted then you presume you have a couple of dedicated slots, if you then find out on the day that you haven't, then you are bound to be upset. Just a suggestion, keep the number of pilots booked in to a sensible number and structure the days flying around 10 minute slots but use SLOT NUMBERS to indicate which slot is flying. The slot times can then be lengthened or shortened accordingly but it is up to the flightline crew to adhere to the schedule to make sure all slots are flown within the allocated time from the first flight of the day till the last. This method does work and since pilots know where they stand there are no arguments. PS. I'm not sure on-line booking in helps, get the paperwork with the flyers details listed and decide whether or not they are wanted for the show. It may seem cruel but for this kind of show a lot of applicants have to be rejected.

[Phil Clark]

I'd agree that the Legendary Fighters team looked a very professional display.......I too liked the mass start up, hold on the lines & taxi out together, plus the taxi in at the end of the slot. I'd happily do something similar, in fact in our final 'Fighteraces' slot, we all taxied out & had all models holding together on the runway before a line astern take off. Having flown at LMA events for the past 18 years, I'd always thought (& witnessed) models being held in the start box by the helper and released 1 by 1 to take off.........safe yes, but it does look a bit naff for an organised team slot. The German approach looked so much better, but can I ask if the safety side of things is not of concern for the flightline marshals? Having unrestrained models with engine running on the edge of the runway after landing could be looked at in the same way.

Safety has to come 1st......personally, I don't see any major issues with doing what the German guys did, especially considering the vastly improved reliability of modern radio systems etc......so if what they did was acceptable, then lets know about it so we can offer our own interpretations of what they showed.

Re:- practised displays, I can see Stewarts point to a certain extent, but if a slot is very strictly planned and executed almost identically every time.....does this not get a bit boring. Yes, the Red's Duo was fantastic, but personally (& no disrespect to the Bishops), once you've seen the same display a few times, does it not looses it's appeal a little? Do the public want to see exactly the same routine 4 times a show? To a non modeller watching, maybe they do, but for one who knows what he's watching....maybe not? Some may attend more than 1 show per season, and seeing what they saw at 1 show in a 2nd may start to wear a bit thin. Practised slots yes, but personally, I like to watch (& fly when I'm doing it) things in a different order every time. As long as it looks tight and isn't erratic.......then that fine. Going back to the 'start & finish' of the slot......I think this is where a lot of the improvement can be made.

Also.......in addition to the German guys, we had 3 other Warbird slots at Cosford, each with between 5 and I think 8 models in the air together......all were flow in roughly the same style. This I think by the Sunday afternoon was wearing a bit thin not only with the public, but also with other pilots from other slots. I for one love the massed bomber/fighter slots that we've had in the past......so what happened to them at Cosford? The DP slot of 15 on the Saturday looked fantastic....they were so many models in the air to look at, they didn't have to do anything clever, and going by the applause from the crowd at the end, they loved it as well. The majority of Warbird pilots who attend the major events have been at it a long time, so can regular mass slots not be looked at?.....I'm sure the majority are quite capable of flying with 15+ models.........pre flight discussion would be vital and a slot plan would be necessary with a take off & landing order plus who flies approximately where & at what height, but as a spectacle for the viewing public, I don't think they can be beaten.

Phil

[stewart clifford]

Phil, I think a proper worked out and practiced schedule would be better for the public than just a make it up on the day round and round in circuits with a few 8's thrown in. A schedule can be tweaked now an then so people don't get bored of it.
I watched the Germans do their practice on the Friday, they each did a 5 minute flight. Perhaps if we all did this the organisers would be able to see who's turned up and what aircraft they have and how they intend to display it. Slots are booked months in advance and many models don't materialise, they're either still not built or they've been written off the week before. After the practice day the organisers can see what's there and how the models could be used.
Then there would be no need to give a strict ten minutes per slot, most fullsize displays are about 6 minutes, the trainers and big Cub type models could have exhausted their routine after 4 minutes. Next time you practice at your club field, time your display, you'd be surprised what you can do in 6 minutes.

[Gregg Veasey]

TJD have tried doing set routines in the past but its very difficult when you have 3 or more aircraft in formation. It relies on each aircraft being in the right place throughout the whole display. Sun position and wind direction/strength is also a factor that means things have to change each time out purely to keep it safe. its easier and safer to achieve with just 2 aircraft as per the reds or Pawnees albeit their routines being very difficult. Instead we practice set manoeuvres as a team and execute them through the displays when appropriate and will continue to add new things each time out. A new one for us at cosford was the line abreast half Cuban on the 45 line over the trees on the left. Not an easy one for 6 aircraft to execute but to us it looked great and we had a good few mention that manoeuvre to us between flights.
Flying simple circuits is not our bag and as we get better/tighter we introduce more. We've always done multi take-offs and landings plus had aero's, splits & joker solo's in our displays but are now talking about whats next to raise our game again for next year.

Also, a big attraction that was missing at Cosford this year was the mass warbird flight i.e the balbo. I know at Duxford flying legends its the finale but at a model show it should perhaps be brought forward to get the impact and the volume of spectators. Its a great spectacle for the public and quite an exciting flights for the pilots involved just because of the shear number in the air albeit flying in circles.

[Pat Cuss]

I think Dave Hayfield has hit the nail, less slots but more in each slot. In dp we are aware that our landings take too long and Ian Redshaw is working on a line astern approach with a land or abort instruction from each pilots spotter when the model is a few feet from the ground. All depends on a clear landing area available or if not the aborted plane goes around and tucks on to the tail of the line astern. The next model is already about to land and a similar judgement is made. Regarding the Bishops display bear in mind the public come on only one day and only see the display twice although we have seen it many times. This discussion has high lighted a whole number of issues which we all have to address.

[Phil Clark]

Phil, I think a proper worked out and practiced schedule would be better for the public than just a make it up on the day round and round in circuits with a few 8's thrown in. A schedule can be tweaked now an then so people don't get bored of it.

I agree with Gregg on this one as we've tried it as well. With 5/6 models of varying performance, it's next to impossible. If we all flew a P-47 with a 62 and they all weiged the same, then we'd have a far better chance, but to get 5/6 models of different prototypes, with different engines and in some cases vasty differing performance to do a formation 'routine' is very very difficult. We have single engined 45 powered models of 20lb, thru 80 powered singles of over 30lb to a twin with 62's of almost 60lb........matching that lot ain't ganna be easy without a huge amount of practise (& the weather gods on your side), and being as our team don't all live in the same bit of the country, meeting up away from the shows for multiple practise sessions ain't really practical on time or cost grounds.

As Gregg has said, I think a keep it simple approach is more practical, with certain manoeuvers put in during the flight as and when possible (& safe).

Phil

[Mike Booth]

Amazing idea. Sheer brilliance.
The Horne,Willis,Bones,Booth fighter outfit, established at North Weald has been going for twenty five years.
We were the first fighter group to display in the '8' rather than race around In circles.
This idea was promptly adopted by The Ripmax display team and the rest followed.
The thing about teams, so clearly illustrated by the Germans and TJD, is that everyone flying does as they are told, accepts that and the display remains coordinated.

[andywynn]

Hi all,
Some great suggestions on here, all constructive. As Phil has said the problem with formation is you can only fly as fast as the slowest model, which depending on the plane can be very difficult, in my opinion there is nothing worse than seeing a fighter wallowing around trying to fly slow enough ( normally when flying with the bombers ).
My thoughts on this are thus:
when I was in Duxford last year they had 6 Spits displaying, 2 flew up and down the line and 4 flew figure 8's so there was always something at the front of the display line, so maybe something on them lines???? Formation take off's I think are a must, with maybe rolling fighter breaks in on landings ?? Practice?? Yes if possible but as display pilots we should all be capable of flying to a requested position if told 2 manoeuvres before hand.
Having flown in every Cosford ( yes I am that old !! ) and harking back to the "good old days " one of the best things for me as a pilot and also the crowd was music!! Gave me goose bumps flying my old Mossie in on low passes with 633 squadron belting out in the background, so as we had music for the German visitors and the Reds Duo why cant we have music for others??
Finale !! I know it depends on location money etc etc but we always use to a have a pyro finish which kept the crowds there till the end, im sure many will remember DB Sound and the "oh no they hit the toilet block" comments..... If we arent allowed pyros then there should be some form of close to the show as sometimes it just seems to fizzle out and we should have commentary right till the end ( after the last plane has landed and stopped their engine ) as recently there is nothing during the last slot.

My 2ps worth

Andy

[stewart clifford]

Good point Andy. The thread seems to just be talking about the Warbird slots, I think well practised displays should apply to all of the participating aircraft. We're all capable of bringing our displays upto current expectations, we don't have to spend the next 25 years doing circuits and 8's.

[Mike Booth]

It's a bit like being in a band, you gotta pay your dues' before you get the deal.
You lead the way Stew, we're all waiting with baited breath to see where we've been going wrong.

[stewart clifford]

That's not what I'm getting at, no ones doing anything wrong, clearly people are enjoying the shows but it's also clear they want something new. Everyone I saw fly at Cosford has the ability to bring the displays on to the next level. Without positive discussion between us all we risk becoming stagnant and losing our crowds.

[Gregg Veasey]

The showline nationals last year tried some good things including flying 2 formation flights of a planes from different era's. I was lucky enough to fly the hurricane in one of them. A challenging flight but was great to be a part of and it apparently was very well received.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGXj1H4zHo

[Mike Booth]

That's a perfect example Gregg. Matched pairs and trios are just as good as massed balbo's.
The Corsair pair keep it simple, but the reason it looks and feels so good is because they are accurate, detailed models displayed in true to type circuits.
There is a simple mood of power and reverence that makes you sit back and respect the time and effort that has been expended to create the slot.
Much the same as the big jets.
Part of it is commitment and focus where the pair have had a display in mind right from the outset, worked on it and seen it through.
It's a personal opinion , but I still don't think there is a place for random collectives of club size models at a miniature air show.
Just by the nature of the slot, it eats into show time in the start up and recovery after flight.

[Chris Bradbury]

Just my two cents, but having flown at a couple of non-LMA shows and being a spectator at many, this is what I like and dislike, with some positive suggestions at the end. (Please nobody take offence to my dislikes, I've done this as constructive feedback, plus its just personal taste)

A couple of my favourites to watch are the Bishops and their Red Arrows and Gregg and team with the Warbirds. The reason being they are flying like the real ones and putting on a show. Synchronised landings, big and small manoeuvres, changes in direction, high and low, basically a 'performance', where you have to work out what they'll do next and can try and imagine you watching the full size. Other highlights have been the Dawn Patrol, as so many go up at once and watching models doing bombing runs.

The slots I enjoy less are solo slots, often as in a ten minute slot it can start to feel a bit long. I also find the 3D stuff has the same issue, after you've seen a plane prop hang, or a heli stick bang on the spot, ten minutes feels like a long slot. (Please don't think I underestimate the skill involved here, I don't)

So to summarise my opinions as positive suggestions, rather than a fixed length slot, maybe adjust to suit. For example a beautiful large solo model might only need 5-6 minutes to get its point across as it were, where as a team of planes flying a performance could justify 8-10 for example.

3D wise, I'd like to see more big air manoeuvres in the routines, many pilots seem to focus on very low 'high risk' manoeuvres and forget the enjoyment that a spectator (especially those at the back) can take from seeing a well executed big loop or tail slide. Think F3A blended with 3D.

I also think interactive displays are great, for example if you have RC tank enthusiasts get them involved with the Warbird slots. Some small pyrotechnics and you can reenact planes bombing tanks, though I appreciate in many cases there may be safety restrictions on this.

Anyway, I hope that's seen as constructive feedback.

[Mike Ellis]

The LMA was formed for all pilots to enjoy our wonderful hobby, and I have been a member since 1987.
Cosford was an excellent show and I thought the pair of Red Arrow Hawks were perhaps the best display there.
As for comments on here about "club sized models" not being allowed !! , Lets understand not everyone like warbirds ALL the time , and there is room for everyone to participate !! Other than race around flat out there is little else to enjoy from them !!

Some people feel the LMA is an elitest organisation, which it was NEVER set up to be !!
These comennts from people who think anything under 112" span warbird,must be therefore JUST a club sized model should remember that !!!
Lets see EVERYONE enjoying ALL types and sizes of models at the shows !!
The paying public are entitled to the full range of models,and NOT influenced to spend £1000s if they wish to get into the hobby, as some people seem to feel they should do, just to show off !!

Mike Ellis LMA 652