1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

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Brian Bellamy
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Brian Bellamy » February 17th, 2015, 10:15 pm

Having just read through all of the posts from start to now, what a great thread you have created.
Keep up the great work and look forward to seeing it at one of the shows

Brian

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 18th, 2015, 2:12 pm

Slaved away feverishly today and the drawing for the undercarriage winglet wotsits is nearly complete. I haven't drawn the spars, but will be able to mark them out directly onto the material taking relevant measurements from the drawing. I can scale directly as this has been drawn to the 1/10th scale. As you can see, there is some delicate cutting to be done, could be a bit of model makers lingo? Got a bit of a headache from this believe it or not, so I won't be doing any work today.
Attachments
P2180032.JPG
Undercarriage drawing.
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MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 19th, 2015, 5:37 pm

This photo shows a fair days work! Fiddly is the name of the game. I started off making the spars that are not on the drawing, the LE stiffeners and the two connecting blocks at the outer ends of the winglets. With any luck I will get on with the aerofoils for these tomorrow. I managed to drill the holes without even the slightest bad language. The big hole for the mounting tube is 5/8 inch. I have several tubes and they are all slightly different sizes (OD). Luckily I have one that fits these holes perfectly!
Attachments
P2190033.JPG
Undercarriage bits.
P2190033.JPG (143.74 KiB) Viewed 11087 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 20th, 2015, 5:04 pm

I have had a very busy day making the aerofoils for the winglets, and found time for a dry run. Lots of fitting to do before the glue comes out of the cupboard. I have drilled the two outer undercarriage stretchers to set up the dry run, it all seems to be in the correct position. Once I have checked this out, I will then fit the two inboard stretchers, and when happy with that, get out the glue!

Those of you who have followed this thread will know that the undercarriage was bugging me big time. I now believe that I have got the position about right. The next worry is making the suspension and bogies, then the nose wheel stuff. The main suspension frames may look a bit fragile at the mo, but there is a fair bit of wood to add to this, sides, front and back once the suspension stuff is finished, then it has to be shaped to an aerofoil profile. It will be very strong.
Attachments
P2200034.JPG
Dry run.
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P2200036.JPG
Another dry run.
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P2200041.JPG
Oleo frame clamped on.
P2200041.JPG (185.52 KiB) Viewed 11018 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 21st, 2015, 5:55 pm

Just messed about with gluing the winglets today. Lots of fettling and finishing to do.
Attachments
P2210035.JPG
Glued up!
P2210035.JPG (178.11 KiB) Viewed 10970 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 22nd, 2015, 6:32 pm

Nothing much to report today. I spent only about half an hour fettling the new winglets. I have been feeling a bit rough, a bit of a cold I think, compounded by the Cyno glue stuff from yesterday. Will be going to bed with a hotty very soon.

Bob Thompson1894
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Bob Thompson1894 » February 22nd, 2015, 7:03 pm

Too much information there......:o

Phil Clark
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Phil Clark » February 22nd, 2015, 10:08 pm

You can tell a vast amount of work has gone into even the little U/C winglets.......but do they really need to be that substantial (looks to be built entirely from birch ply?).

You have the vertical member running up to the underside of the wing which is going to pass all of the vertical loads up into the oleo & into the wing spar structure, then the two winglets appear to be joined by a tube through the fuselage which looks like phenolic to me. This is not at all load bearing (it's basically only resin impregnated paper) so I'm guessing it'll either be replaced or you have an aluminium tube to go inside the phenolic (much like a wing tube joiner).

The winglets look a little over engineered for that in effect is a fairing over the load being structure, whereas the attachment to the fuselage that will prevent any fore/aft movement looks a little weak (at the moment).......sorry if I've jumped the gun.

Phil

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 23rd, 2015, 11:46 am

Hi Phil,

If you have jumped the gun, then that would be my fault for not explaining the undercarriage in detail. Previous photos have not shown the aluminium tubes, so I have added a photo of the components as they are at the mo, and as you can see, the paper tube is not standing alone.

Perhaps I should step back a bit here and explain the process to you from my perspective. I started this project using my knowledge of model making from many years ago, realising that ideas, materials and methods have changed in those years. I produced drawings that are incomplete because there were many things that I was unsure about. As this project progresses, things will change, some my original ideas being unsuitable for a large flying model. One of those things that has changed is the undercarriage. When I say changed, the original concept on the real aircraft is being replicated here, only with ideas to suit a model. I had many things to consider, and that main thing was the ability to make this in several pieces for transportation and or storage. It is a big model, 16 foot wingspan and ten foot long, standing about four foot height at the fins. I decided it would be prudent to make the undercarriage detachable to reduce the width. The measurement across the main wheels is ITRO three feet, with these removed the width is just over 20 inches. This concept itself produces problems that need addressing.

Before I started any serious work on this project, I asked John Rickett (the inspector) to have a look at the drawings to make any suggestions etc, which he kindly did. From this meeting I changed the sizes of some bits that seemed too small. He questioned the integrity of the undercarriage and I suggested that these are parts that can be re-made to a higher spec at a later date. At that time I had no real idea of how I was going to tackle this. Later, at the AGM, I had a chat with John about this project and the subject of the undercarriage came up. What he suggested at that time was that I should make the undercarriage as strong as possible, he didn’t suggest how, just that I should make it strong. So this is where I am with it. Whilst I can understand why you should mention that the winglets are a structural feature with a fairing covering it, in reality, for this model and the winglets being quite small, there is a need to make them as load bearing as possible. The spars are made from birch ply, as is the fixing block on the outer end, and the rest is lite ply. There will be two ¼ inch dowels to give some support to the olio frames, and a 3/8 inch location dowel at the fuselage end. You mention the fact that there is no structure at the fuselage end, this is because it is not yet there. Unlike the wing roots, which was the starting point of the design, the undercarriage is worked in reverse because I needed to establish its actual position at the fuselage, and this was easier to do once the model had physically progressed. I made some mounting stretchers for the U/C some time ago. There are four of them each just over a foot long, and are located at the bottom of the frames. You can see in this picture that there is another aerofoil section loose fitted to the tube. This will be let into the side of the fuselage, and the 1.1/4 inch gap between this and the outer stretchers will be filled with a solid (balsa) block. There will be no movement on this winglet.

The concept is simple, but yet to be proven. The undercarriage is rectangular, a tube at the bottom passing through the fuselage and the winglets, the two olio legs at the sides, and another tube from the top of the olios passing through the wing roots. This top tube will have a boxing around it that will fit into a slot under the wings and will not be seen. The load will not be borne by the wings. We should also consider that there will be sprung suspension, so assuming a properly handled landing, these springs should absorb the weight of the aircraft gradually? In the event of a heavy landing, we must hope that there is enough strength there to prevent any damage occurring? I would prefer to think that these winglets are “well engineered” rather than “over engineered”? Perhaps we should also consider that it is the combined effect of all the undercarriage components working together that produce the required integrity, not just selected bits. However, should the design or structure of any component prove to be inadequate, then it can be re-made.
Attachments
P2230037 (600x450).jpg
RH Winglet.
P2230037 (600x450).jpg (89.44 KiB) Viewed 10862 times

Steve Rickett 2333
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Steve Rickett 2333 » February 23rd, 2015, 2:01 pm

Hi Malcolm,

You're certainly put a lot of time and effort into the Beverley, it's going to be a very impressive model when complete. I hope you don't mind if I make some suggestions....

Undercarriages on models are usually the most overlooked area. A model of this size is going to weigh somewhere around 120lbs. Possibly more. Consider if you have a hard landing, shock 'G' loads of 10g are quite likely...again, possibly more. These loads will be not only up through the Oleo leg (and into the wing) but aft loads ( due to forward motion on uneven grass, binding wheels etc) and sideways loads due to crosswinds. It is highly likely that one wheel will touch first...so you could theoretically have a load of 1200lbs (or more) on just one undercarriage leg, momentarily. You may not wish to build each oleo to take all 1200lbs, clearly, if you keep the wings level then you can halve this number instantly. It is worth considering though.

To make this undercarriage capable of taking those sorts of stresses then I would forget the use of wood and use Aluminium or Steel. That main Oleo leg needs to go from a very sturdy attachment in the wing....all the way to the undercarriage bogey. A set of strong springs that start to compress at 1/2 the aircrafts weight and fully compresses at around 800-900lbs would be my starting point inside the Oleo. Springs are cheap, and very easy change once the model is finished.

I would recommend that that fairing needs to be built from two aluminium (or steel) tubes that are bolted to the oleo leg and then follow the fore and aft line of the fairing to hard points in the fuselage. (ideally the center of the fuselage so the tubes can be bolted together.) This will triangulate the Oleo into position and be able to take all loads thats its going to be subject to. The final shape of the fairing needs not be much more that some Lite-ply or even balsa ribs to hold the fairing into shape.

Are you 100% certain you want to remove the undercarriage for transportation? That fuselage will weigh around 50-60lbs...you will not pick it up without a second pair of hands. Also, consider how you support the model in the van, at 50-60lbs models start to damage themselves if you simply place them on the floor. You will need quite an elaborate cradle system to transport everything on. What I am getting at is that there is no better way of manoeuvring a huge lump of very delicate balsa and ply than on it's own wheels. A simple ramp into the back of your van means you will be able to load the model single handed, you'll save a huge amount of time and effort each visit to the flying field, and you'll be able to build a lighter, simpler and stronger airframe in the workshop.

Maybe some of engineering types will be able to chip in with their thoughts?

Cheers

Steve

ian redshaw
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby ian redshaw » February 23rd, 2015, 2:30 pm

Whilst I agree with most of what Phil and Steve have written, surely the estimated weight of 120lb is on the high side? I think my 17ft HP42 is on the high side at 80lb and would be a reasonable target weight for the Beverley? The main load on the winglet is going to be a rearwards rotation, trying to bend the tube and dig the rear edge of the winglet into the fuselage. If the winglets are strong, then the fuselage cross section at the winglet strong to match, this crushing force is more than amply catered for. The oleo has its weight loads catered for in the form adequate springs, but the drag loads of the wheels or harder / faster than ideal landings will either try to rip the oleo rearwards off the winglet, pull it forwards off the wing structure or more likely bend the oleo inbetween the winglet and the wing itself. How long are the oleos Malcolm, could they be made up as a 'one piece' affair?

Ian.

Phil Clark
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Phil Clark » February 23rd, 2015, 3:04 pm

I agree with Steve re:- target weight.......120lb would be a very respectable aiming point, but if it comes in a little higher, I'd not be surprised. The bulk of John Deacons old 1/6 scale B-24 Liberator springs to mind.......John built VERY light & even this came in a little over the 120lb mark IIRC. Like the B-24, this is a massively bulky aeroplane & we've already seen plenty of photos showing a lot of internal structure..............it's not a fabric bag full of fresh air Ian :lol:

I also agree with Steve that 2 load bearing members would be ideal inside the winglet that can be triangulated to help prevent against any fore/aft (99.9% aft) movement. A single small diamater tube right in the centre will bend very easily. I do however think the vertical loads MUST pass (somehow) into the wings main spar box assembly rather than behind it into an 'open' part of the wing (as seems to be shown in photo # 200041). This spar box is the strongest area of the wing and has to be designed & built not just to take flight loads......as Steve has said, you'll generate MUCH higher loads in the inevitable less that smooth landings than you ever will simply flying the thing round the circuit. Whatever the upper end of the oleo is fixed to, the vertical loads need to be transfered into a substantial structure or else you;ll risk the upper end punching straight through the wing. Rather than adding another one (& more weight), why not use the one that's already there.

Phil

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 23rd, 2015, 4:38 pm

Many thanks guys for this input, lots of lovely info there. I will carry on doing what I am doing, but will not fully fix it all in permanently. Perhaps a few small glue tacks to keep things in place. If I can get this to Gaydon or another static display, perhaps you guys could make some suggestions based on seeing the model in the flesh. I would be able to comprehend the suggestions much better then?

I have estimated the finished weight to be ITRO 120 lbs possibly a bit less. At the mo, the total weight is not more than 24 lbs.

I have a new batch of materials on the way. I will do jobs that have no load bearing aspects to worry about. I think it a good idea not to skin the main part of the fuselage to allow access for any structural alterations that seem to be likely.

Alan Cantwell 1131
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Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby Alan Cantwell 1131 » February 23rd, 2015, 7:33 pm

Great stuff this!! If you need any materials for the undercat, aluminium, titanium, let me know, i will have a mooch around for you at work in the bat end bins, all aircraft spec ally, ec, cheap as chips as usual :D

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 24th, 2015, 4:49 pm

Did no work on the Bev today, just spent my time considering what to do about the undercarriage, and had a word with John Rickett. Following on from the advice from yesterday, I have decided to make the undercarriage assembly fixed rather than removable. I am also looking at having my oleos and nose wheel assembly professionally made.

My box of materials turned up today, got a massive block of balsa amongst the stuff (36 x 4 x 3), this could see me through several models, and 50 sheets of 1/8" x 4" x 48" for the skin, this will do about 2/3rds of the model. There is a selection of spruce and some birch ply and lite ply for the wings etc.
Attachments
P2240038 (600x450).jpg
Box of materials.
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P2240039 (600x450).jpg
Large block.
P2240039 (600x450).jpg (67.86 KiB) Viewed 10761 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 25th, 2015, 5:06 pm

I spent my time fitting the essential tubes in place today. This requires lots of centering pieces to be drilled and cut to fit the tubes tightly, but loose enough to slide into place easily. The thick cyno does this job very well. The centre retaining tube has several pieces of phenolic tube that need the aluminium tube in place to keep them in line whilst gluing. This centre tube holds in the wings and the rear half of the fuselage as well as forming a location lug for the back end of the cockpit section. It is the cockpit section that retains the tube in place, several things done with one piece of tube. The top tube for the undercarriage is also glued in place ready for when I fit the U/C legs at a later date. I have ordered a larger diameter tube for the rear wing location. This tube will also have a supportive role for the undercarriage. The plot thickens.
Attachments
P2250041 (600x450).jpg
Centering pieces ready.
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P2250045 (600x450).jpg
And glued in place.
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P2250042 (600x450).jpg
Undercarriage top tube in place.
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MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » February 26th, 2015, 5:06 pm

One of those days today. Been steadily doing stuff, but not a lot to show for it. I made and fitted some balsa blocks at the root end of the U/C winglets. Once the winglets are glued in place, they will be very ridged, and eventually once skinned and fibre cloth laminated to the surface, it will be like steel. The picture shows the basic assembly of the oleo frame in its position. I will probably make replacements for these once I have established what the oleos will look like and how I will fix them in place. What will happen eventually is the top tube will be boxed in. When the wings are inserted, a corresponding recess will cover the boxed in tube and it will not be seen. I have another tube on the way that will be slightly higher and behind the U/C top tube to stabilise the rear end of the wings. I will arrange the framing inside the wing to give some extra support to the U/C set up. The oleo legs will be over an inch thick when completed, so quite substantial items. The combined strength of the two tubes joined together via the oleo legs will be sufficient for all but the very heaviest landings. If they break, I will have to make some repairs!
Attachments
P2260048 (600x450).jpg
U/C dry run.
P2260048 (600x450).jpg (82.6 KiB) Viewed 10659 times

MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » March 1st, 2015, 4:42 pm

It is amazing what jobs we can find to do on a model. I have spent the past couple of days doing a load of little bits and pieces, not least fitting the jointing tube for the back end of the wings. This was an addition to the original idea and required some butchery internally. This now needs some attention, a fiddly job in a place where you cannot get your hands, might cause some modellers rhetoric? Could be the liberal use of two part filler in a couple of places? I also have an idea that some well placed glass cloth and resin will be useful too. However, I have no fears regarding the integrity of this area.

You may also spot the inserts in the oleo leg. These are for the top end of the suspension, assuming that I make this myself. Should I opt to have the suspension made for me, then I will undoubtedly need to re-make the legs to suit a different system.
Attachments
P3010054 (600x450).jpg
Some progress.
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MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » March 3rd, 2015, 5:53 pm

Thought I'd just show you the picture of the surgery that was needed to install the wing mounting tube. This was additional to the original concept and required some butchery. It looks a bit of a mess, but is an excellent repair job that will otherwise never be seen. This was the same both sides.

I have ordered the glass fibre and related materials for the eventual surface coating on the balsa skin. There is also a roll of 1" carbon fibre tape that I may well use on the main wing spars. This will definitely provide some much needed strength.

However, folks. Today we had an offer on the house. For those of you familiar with moving will realise what lies ahead? This would include not having time for model making. So the next installment could be quite a few weeks away, or months even? I'll keep you informed as to how it is going!
Attachments
P3030059 (600x450).jpg
The surgery.
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MalcolmDouglasPorter

Re: 1/10th scale Blackburn Beverley.

Postby MalcolmDouglasPorter » March 5th, 2015, 10:07 am

Oh bugga! The offer on the house blew out, so by the look of it, I will find some time for the Beverley again.


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